I’m tempted to applaud your tenacity for hanging on here, like a pitbull who’s got hold of the postman’s leg, but am dissuaded from doing so by the suspicion that it stems from an absolute inability to contemplate the fact that you might be wrong coupled with the delusional certainty that, given enough time, you will win us round to your way of thinking.
It’s important to realize that my contributions here aren’t for you, or your commenters. I hold no illusions that I’ll dissuade Sally or Patrick, or PZ for that matter, of his position. I do “contemplate the fact that” I might be sorely mistaken on these points, often and ever, and this in part is why I comment here, rather than just pal-it-up with people who already agree with me.
I am aware of Marxism; labor theory of value is in contrast to the capital theory, which is the society we live in. We are moving toward a radical individualization, away from the traditional family view of societal “units”, and this is in large part due to feminism/consumerism. What feminists have traded, in exchange for the “right” to work, has been the “right” to not work, and who, pray tell, benefits from a much larger labor pool? Those hiring, and those taxing, but certainly not those working. All of that extra cash went into the coffers of the top 1%, and has grown gov’t spending, while little of it redounded to the workers(those still able to find jobs). The explosive technological innovations of the recent decades, the internet included, have veiled these trends.
I’m not suggesting we move BACK to the traditional view, it’s not clear that it’s even possible, but it’s important to remember why that worked. It worked in large part because it served to buffer the individual from the state on the one hand and abject poverty on the other. Radical conservatives who say “let the losers die” are wrong in the present circumstances because the support system they dream of returning to simply doesn’t exist any longer.
Where feminism plays hide-the-ball is in characterizing “class” along gender lines in particular, in it’s attempts to make men and women interchangeable in the context of disparate biological drives and motivations that simply aren’t the same*, and never will be**. That’s striving for “a classless society” in form, even if not identical to the Marxist conceptions of it. It’s the opposite of the mistake made by radical conservatives; what feminists dream of is a future that doesn’t exist, rather than a past that does no longer.
This is why I find it highly ironic that people here are saying that those other guys just did Marx wrong, failing to realize that this is precisely what you’re doing; this is what we’re bound to do until we stop treating Marx like some kind of political messiah. It’s not some massive coincidence that socialism is a hot political topic at the moment. It’s perfectly true to say quotas aren’t
Individuals like Rowant, who dropped out of the discussion some time back, are exquisitely representative of the reasons I oppose a quota system. Even if I grant you the entirety of social conditioning as an hypothesis for, say, more women teachers and fewer women CEOs, and we could somehow make this known to people like Rowant, she’s still going to desire to work with animals. Merely explaining someone’s desires doesn’t make them vanish, so until you actually correct the “social conditioning” that (apparently) underlay Rowant’s desire to work with animals over being a high-powered executive or w/e other high-paying, high-stress job you want to use, she would have to risk being blocked or passed over for her desired work because she’s the wrong gender. The same applies for other jobs where women occupy a majority.
The bare fact that I have to frame this as a detriment to women should (but won’t) highlight the sexism inherent in not giving a shit about this treatment of men, on the basis of some few or some dead men who (apparently) did-down women in the past (plus 99% of men, but fuck ’em).
* The research showing sex-specific behaviors, via gene expression and a combination of cognitive architecture and development, is levied in support of the general scientific consensus in cognitive psychology that runs severely contrary to the “blank slate” view of “social conditioning” as the only cause of sex-specific behavior. Due to ethical concerns, most of the actual experimentation can’t be done on humans, so, sorry bradley, mice and monkeys is what you get.
** The human population has transcended any form of natural selection that has ever been shown to shift a sexually dimorphous species towards…well, anything other than what it is, really. You need pressure, and selection, and we’ve tech’d ourselves out of the game. Barring eugenics, what we’ve got is what we’re stuck with.